PERSPECTIVE
THE TRINITY PART 2
THE TRINITY PART 2
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15
Hebrews 4:15
PART 5: ADDRESSING QUESTIONS
These are objections to the trinity, raised mainly because of misunderstandings of what the scriptures mean, or ideas about the nature of God that don't come from scripture.
These are objections to the trinity, raised mainly because of misunderstandings of what the scriptures mean, or ideas about the nature of God that don't come from scripture.
1. Jesus can't be God, because God Created Him
Some believe that Jesus was a created being, if he was, then he cannot be God, they use the following verses to justify that belief.Colossians 1:15-19
(Jesus) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Revelation 3:14
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The term firstborn does not mean first in order, but first in importance. This is clarified in the rest of the passage, where Jesus is called the "head" and "preeminent."
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning , the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
The term firstborn can also be seen to mean first in importance in the following Old Testament verses Psalm 89:27 and Jeremiah 31:9
The term "the beginning of the creation" is not referring to Jesus as being part of the creation, but the architect. The word translated "beginning" comes from the Greek word "arche" from where we get words like archangel and architect. While it can mean both first in order or the origin. In Revelation it means the originator, the architect, not the first created.
2. God cannot rebel against himself
This argument is based on an interpretation of Matthew chapter 4 and is used by the Jehovah's witnesses to show that Jesus could not be God. In Matthew chapter 4 Jesus is tempted by the Devil. They claim that this was a loyalty test, and if Jesus were God he wouldn't need a loyalty test. They also claim that if Jesus were God then he couldn't be tempted. Neither of these arguments are based on scripture. Also if Jesus had rebelled against God it would have been proof positive that he was not God. But Jesus didn't rebel, so what does that prove?
First, there is nothing in the passage that says it was a test of loyalty. The passage tells us what Satan was trying to do. Satan says twice, "If you are the Son of God…" Satan was attempting to get Jesus to prove that he was the Son of God. To do this he gave Jesus three tests. Interestingly these are the same three things we all face.
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jesus was asked to turn the stones into bread, to satisfy the lust of the flesh. Jesus was asked to jump from the temple to show who he was to satisfy the pride of life. Jesus was shown all the kingdoms of the world, which is the lust of the eyes. Jesus passed all these tests. There is a very important reason why these particular tests were given to Jesus as we shall see.
Who was conducting the test? It was the Devil that was asking the questions. It is true that the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, but it is the Devil who chose the temptations. So God is not conducting a test on himself.
The desires of the flesh are not sinful in themselves for God designed them. Sin occurs when we choose to obey them over the will of God. We fail to realize that God can provide the flesh with all it needs, and we try to provide for it ourselves. But Jesus did not let the will of his flesh or any other temptation come between him and his Father. Jesus always did the will of God.
What was the real reason the Spirit lead Jesus to be tempted? If Jesus had not been tempted of the devil then we would not have evidence that he faced the same temptations we do. Jesus was not tempted so that God could find out whether Jesus was loyal or not, Jesus was tempted so he could be the perfect high priest.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
3. God Cannot Be Tempted
Based again on the temptation of Jesus, the claim is made that Jesus cannot be God, because God cannot be tempted.
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:,
First the above verse should help in showing that the word tempt is used of the one doing the tempting, not the one being tempted, secondly it says God cannot be tempted with evil, not that someone cannot attempt to tempt God. Consider the following verses:
Exodus 17:2
Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Read also: Exodus 17:7, Deuteronomy 6:16, Psalms 78:18, Psalms 78:41, Isaiah 7:12, Malachi 3:15.
These verses all present places where people tempted God. God however cannot be tempted, i.e. be influenced by the temptation. So the fact that Jesus was tempted by the devil is not evidence that he was not God. In fact God would certainly be able to pass all the temptations, and Jesus did.
4. If Jesus were God he would have the same will as the Father.
It is evident from scripture that Jesus had a different will from God the Father,
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
But is this a problem, can the persons of a trinity have separate wills? If you believe in the trinity the answer from scripture would have to be yes. Only if there were times when Jesus did not do Gods will would there be proof of a problem. There is no evidence that Jesus ever did anything other than the will of God the Father. Read the following verses: Matthew 6:10, Matthew 26:39, John 4:34, John 8:29, Galatians 1:4
5. If Jesus were God, then his death was a gross overpayment for our sins.
If you love someone, how much are you willing to pay? How much is one life worth, how much are a billion lives worth? Consider the following verses:
1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ephesians 5:25
…Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
This argument is based on an interpretation of Matthew chapter 4 and is used by the Jehovah's witnesses to show that Jesus could not be God. In Matthew chapter 4 Jesus is tempted by the Devil. They claim that this was a loyalty test, and if Jesus were God he wouldn't need a loyalty test. They also claim that if Jesus were God then he couldn't be tempted. Neither of these arguments are based on scripture. Also if Jesus had rebelled against God it would have been proof positive that he was not God. But Jesus didn't rebel, so what does that prove?
First, there is nothing in the passage that says it was a test of loyalty. The passage tells us what Satan was trying to do. Satan says twice, "If you are the Son of God…" Satan was attempting to get Jesus to prove that he was the Son of God. To do this he gave Jesus three tests. Interestingly these are the same three things we all face.
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jesus was asked to turn the stones into bread, to satisfy the lust of the flesh. Jesus was asked to jump from the temple to show who he was to satisfy the pride of life. Jesus was shown all the kingdoms of the world, which is the lust of the eyes. Jesus passed all these tests. There is a very important reason why these particular tests were given to Jesus as we shall see.
Who was conducting the test? It was the Devil that was asking the questions. It is true that the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, but it is the Devil who chose the temptations. So God is not conducting a test on himself.
The desires of the flesh are not sinful in themselves for God designed them. Sin occurs when we choose to obey them over the will of God. We fail to realize that God can provide the flesh with all it needs, and we try to provide for it ourselves. But Jesus did not let the will of his flesh or any other temptation come between him and his Father. Jesus always did the will of God.
What was the real reason the Spirit lead Jesus to be tempted? If Jesus had not been tempted of the devil then we would not have evidence that he faced the same temptations we do. Jesus was not tempted so that God could find out whether Jesus was loyal or not, Jesus was tempted so he could be the perfect high priest.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
3. God Cannot Be Tempted
Based again on the temptation of Jesus, the claim is made that Jesus cannot be God, because God cannot be tempted.
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:,
First the above verse should help in showing that the word tempt is used of the one doing the tempting, not the one being tempted, secondly it says God cannot be tempted with evil, not that someone cannot attempt to tempt God. Consider the following verses:
Exodus 17:2
Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Read also: Exodus 17:7, Deuteronomy 6:16, Psalms 78:18, Psalms 78:41, Isaiah 7:12, Malachi 3:15.
These verses all present places where people tempted God. God however cannot be tempted, i.e. be influenced by the temptation. So the fact that Jesus was tempted by the devil is not evidence that he was not God. In fact God would certainly be able to pass all the temptations, and Jesus did.
4. If Jesus were God he would have the same will as the Father.
It is evident from scripture that Jesus had a different will from God the Father,
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
But is this a problem, can the persons of a trinity have separate wills? If you believe in the trinity the answer from scripture would have to be yes. Only if there were times when Jesus did not do Gods will would there be proof of a problem. There is no evidence that Jesus ever did anything other than the will of God the Father. Read the following verses: Matthew 6:10, Matthew 26:39, John 4:34, John 8:29, Galatians 1:4
5. If Jesus were God, then his death was a gross overpayment for our sins.
If you love someone, how much are you willing to pay? How much is one life worth, how much are a billion lives worth? Consider the following verses:
1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ephesians 5:25
…Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Did you notice something about all these verses? The ransom was for all, for everyone, for whosoever. It was also a gift made in love. It was not an exchange. That is, it was not based on the value of the receiver, but on love. To believe that Jesus' gift of his death on the cross was an overpayment if he were God is to belittle the gift and the giver. The truth is that the cross shows how much he values each one of us.
6. The three persons of the trinity could not be separate.
Why not? God is omnipresent, so technically He is everywhere, how could he get away from himself? Is this based on anything we could possibly understand about the nature of God? How do we know God can't do that? Let's stick with the scriptures, rather than try to comprehend God with our own human reason. The scriptures tell us Jesus was God.
7. If Jesus were God then he would have known everything.
If Jesus were really God, he should know everything, because that is one of the attributes of God. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus did not have all knowledge. Does this prove that Jesus could not be God?
Mark 13:31-32
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Hebrews 5:8-9
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
The root of much of the problem is the idea that if God became a man He would still have all the attributes of God the Father. First of all God does not describe how he exists, he simply says "I AM." We can deduce however from what we know about man, some of the attributes God would have to set aside in order to become a man. As a man Jesus was not omnipresent, he had a body, that body had a particular location in time and space. The doctrine of the trinity states that God is three persons, so while God the Son was no longer omnipresent, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit still would be. How many of these persons would have to be omnipresent for God to remain omnipresent? Only one. God the Son could not become separate from God the Father when he became a man, because God was already everyplace.
Also if God became a man he would have a human brain, and a human brain only has so much capacity, and although it can contain lots of information it cannot contain all information, that is, we cannot be omniscient. So it would be perfectly logical that if God became a man he would have to give up His omniscience. How many of the persons in the trinity would have to be omniscient for all of them to have access to all knowledge? Only one.
So Jesus had access to all information, but like us, he could not know it all. So what does it prove, when Jesus did not know certain things? That he was a man. But one thing Jesus did know is that he was God, this is clearly admitted in scripture. While the observation that Jesus did not have all knowledge is certainly valid, the idea that it proves he could not be God is based entirely on an assumption about the nature of God.
What about the fact that Jesus learned obedience? Just like everyone else, Jesus learned to walk, talk and read. At his birth he wasn't able to greet shepherds with a "hello" and a handshake and read them a verse out of Isaiah. Everything Jesus knew as a man he learned. He learned from experience, He learned from the scriptures and He learned from God the Father.
It is critical that we do not misinterpret what is meant by this. For if at one point Jesus didn't know or understand how to obey, then how could he have been obedient? For if only once he was disobedient even mistakenly, he would no longer be the perfect man, and his death would not pay for our sins. And if being made perfect, means that at one point he was imperfect then Jesus could not have paid for our sins.
So what does it mean that Jesus, learned and that he had to be made perfect? Jesus learned because he was a man, he learned suffering through the experience of his life, but the cross was the moment he learned the most. Jesus was always obedient, what he learned was the suffering connected with it. Jesus as a man had never felt that much pain, that much rejection. Jesus was made perfect, by completing what he was put here to do. The Greek word "teleioo" translated "perfect" is related to the word "teleo" which means "finished"
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
The idea of being made perfect is expressed in the accomplishment of what he came to do. His finished work made him perfect. The cross was the work necessary for Jesus' life to be perfect!
The ideas of his having to learn and not knowing all things express his humanity; they are not evidences that he was not God in human flesh. In truth we cannot imagine what it would be like for God to become a man. Our lack of understanding or inability to perceive something does not hinder God in any way however.
These questions in themselves prove nothing in regards to the existence or non-existence of the trinity. As has already been said, they do not counter the many places in scripture that Jesus is shown to be God. If God chose to become a man, then the things we see that seem to indicate that Jesus was not God, are only due to our perception and beliefs.
Why not? God is omnipresent, so technically He is everywhere, how could he get away from himself? Is this based on anything we could possibly understand about the nature of God? How do we know God can't do that? Let's stick with the scriptures, rather than try to comprehend God with our own human reason. The scriptures tell us Jesus was God.
7. If Jesus were God then he would have known everything.
If Jesus were really God, he should know everything, because that is one of the attributes of God. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus did not have all knowledge. Does this prove that Jesus could not be God?
Mark 13:31-32
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Hebrews 5:8-9
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
The root of much of the problem is the idea that if God became a man He would still have all the attributes of God the Father. First of all God does not describe how he exists, he simply says "I AM." We can deduce however from what we know about man, some of the attributes God would have to set aside in order to become a man. As a man Jesus was not omnipresent, he had a body, that body had a particular location in time and space. The doctrine of the trinity states that God is three persons, so while God the Son was no longer omnipresent, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit still would be. How many of these persons would have to be omnipresent for God to remain omnipresent? Only one. God the Son could not become separate from God the Father when he became a man, because God was already everyplace.
Also if God became a man he would have a human brain, and a human brain only has so much capacity, and although it can contain lots of information it cannot contain all information, that is, we cannot be omniscient. So it would be perfectly logical that if God became a man he would have to give up His omniscience. How many of the persons in the trinity would have to be omniscient for all of them to have access to all knowledge? Only one.
So Jesus had access to all information, but like us, he could not know it all. So what does it prove, when Jesus did not know certain things? That he was a man. But one thing Jesus did know is that he was God, this is clearly admitted in scripture. While the observation that Jesus did not have all knowledge is certainly valid, the idea that it proves he could not be God is based entirely on an assumption about the nature of God.
What about the fact that Jesus learned obedience? Just like everyone else, Jesus learned to walk, talk and read. At his birth he wasn't able to greet shepherds with a "hello" and a handshake and read them a verse out of Isaiah. Everything Jesus knew as a man he learned. He learned from experience, He learned from the scriptures and He learned from God the Father.
It is critical that we do not misinterpret what is meant by this. For if at one point Jesus didn't know or understand how to obey, then how could he have been obedient? For if only once he was disobedient even mistakenly, he would no longer be the perfect man, and his death would not pay for our sins. And if being made perfect, means that at one point he was imperfect then Jesus could not have paid for our sins.
So what does it mean that Jesus, learned and that he had to be made perfect? Jesus learned because he was a man, he learned suffering through the experience of his life, but the cross was the moment he learned the most. Jesus was always obedient, what he learned was the suffering connected with it. Jesus as a man had never felt that much pain, that much rejection. Jesus was made perfect, by completing what he was put here to do. The Greek word "teleioo" translated "perfect" is related to the word "teleo" which means "finished"
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
The idea of being made perfect is expressed in the accomplishment of what he came to do. His finished work made him perfect. The cross was the work necessary for Jesus' life to be perfect!
The ideas of his having to learn and not knowing all things express his humanity; they are not evidences that he was not God in human flesh. In truth we cannot imagine what it would be like for God to become a man. Our lack of understanding or inability to perceive something does not hinder God in any way however.
These questions in themselves prove nothing in regards to the existence or non-existence of the trinity. As has already been said, they do not counter the many places in scripture that Jesus is shown to be God. If God chose to become a man, then the things we see that seem to indicate that Jesus was not God, are only due to our perception and beliefs.
8. A Mediator must be separate from both parties.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
This objection is taken from our human experience; we want a mediator that is impartial, one that is not going to choose sides. If a mediator is part of the parties involved there is too much room for dishonesty and corruption. But this wouldn't be the case with Jesus, how would he be impartial or dishonest.
But Jesus is God, and as a mediator he has partiality to both sides. He is also perfectly righteous, just and trustworthy. Why wouldn't the perfect mediator be one that understood both sides perfectly, who's interests are for the benefit and welfare of all involved, and one who also had the solution? Only Jesus knows what it is to be a man, and also knows perfectly God the Father. This would rather make him the perfect mediator, rather than disqualify him. The idea that a mediator has to be a separate being is mistaken.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
This objection is taken from our human experience; we want a mediator that is impartial, one that is not going to choose sides. If a mediator is part of the parties involved there is too much room for dishonesty and corruption. But this wouldn't be the case with Jesus, how would he be impartial or dishonest.
But Jesus is God, and as a mediator he has partiality to both sides. He is also perfectly righteous, just and trustworthy. Why wouldn't the perfect mediator be one that understood both sides perfectly, who's interests are for the benefit and welfare of all involved, and one who also had the solution? Only Jesus knows what it is to be a man, and also knows perfectly God the Father. This would rather make him the perfect mediator, rather than disqualify him. The idea that a mediator has to be a separate being is mistaken.
9. Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
These seem to indicate that the Son is not God, and they would seem to be false if Jesus was God. This creates a problem because many places in the Bible we find Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are the same person.
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Then if by this statement Jesus is not saying that he is God, or even indicating it, but only declaring that he is showing them the actions and heart of the Father, who cannot be seen. Why didn't Jesus just say, read the scriptures? Were they not written to show us who God is?
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
So the Old Testament seems to be written of Jesus, and also of God. But the real problem with all this is that the Bible declares that men have seen God.
Who was it that John saw here?
In Revelation 4:1-8 John describes heaven and the one who sits on the throne finishing with this:
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Now one might say that this was a vision, or he was in the spirit, and that it was not real, but there is no such stipulation in the verse "no man hath seen God at any time." The Greek word for "seen" means either to see with the eyes, or perceive with the mind.
Another objection might be that John wrote this after he said that no man had seen God, so until then those statements were correct. The problem with this is that Isaiah and Ezekiel saw the same thing hundreds of years before John was even born.
Isaiah 6:1-4
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Ezekiel 1:26-28
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Exodus 33:17-23 Moses also saw God
And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
These seem to indicate that the Son is not God, and they would seem to be false if Jesus was God. This creates a problem because many places in the Bible we find Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are the same person.
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Then if by this statement Jesus is not saying that he is God, or even indicating it, but only declaring that he is showing them the actions and heart of the Father, who cannot be seen. Why didn't Jesus just say, read the scriptures? Were they not written to show us who God is?
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
So the Old Testament seems to be written of Jesus, and also of God. But the real problem with all this is that the Bible declares that men have seen God.
Who was it that John saw here?
In Revelation 4:1-8 John describes heaven and the one who sits on the throne finishing with this:
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Now one might say that this was a vision, or he was in the spirit, and that it was not real, but there is no such stipulation in the verse "no man hath seen God at any time." The Greek word for "seen" means either to see with the eyes, or perceive with the mind.
Another objection might be that John wrote this after he said that no man had seen God, so until then those statements were correct. The problem with this is that Isaiah and Ezekiel saw the same thing hundreds of years before John was even born.
Isaiah 6:1-4
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Ezekiel 1:26-28
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Exodus 33:17-23 Moses also saw God
And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
These four instances show that God has indeed been seen. So the problem is that the Bible declares that no man has seen God and we find four instances (and there are more) where men have seen God. It is a contradiction unless there is more than one person that is God. Then all three would have to be seen in order to that statement to be false. We see a hint of this in the passage from Exodus, where Moses sees part of God. Believing that God is not a trinity makes the two statements made by John irreconcilable. If no one has seen God, yet the Bible declares men have seen God, then the Bible is false. The Bible is not false, and God is three persons, so it is perfectly possible for men to have seen "The Son" who is God, and not "The Father" who is God, or the "Spirit" who is God. Making John's statements correct, because the invisible God no one has seen, but Jesus, God the Son we have seen. Without the trinity, the contradiction of who has seen God becomes unsolvable.
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